Episode 4: Retention & Reward

Jo Sweetland:

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:33:38

We made this podcast with Jackie as she was transitioning from the role of Chief people and culture officer at Hilton Foods into a new portfolio. Career. Hello, I'm Joe Sweetland, managing director at Green Park. Welcome to today's episode of High Beams, dedicated to lighting the way ahead for HR people in talent and DIY leaders. We're delighted to welcome our guest today, Jackie Lanham, to this episode of the podcast. Welcome, Jackie. It's a pleasure to have you here today. Before we get into the session, Jackie, would you mind giving a brief overview of yourself and your career to date?

Jackie Lanham:

00:00:34:00 - 00:01:22:14

Sure. Thanks so much for inviting me along today, Joe. So I'm the chief people and culture officer for a business called Hilton Foods. We have a 60 to 50 food manufacturing, 4 billion turnover international organization, and I've had the pleasure of being in the role now for almost eight years. And fantastic opportunity is as the first chief people and culture officer for the business. Previous to that, my career has spanned retail, manufacturing and financial services, and I've had the great opportunity to be able to work across every single aspect of the HR model. And also, most importantly, I've had the opportunity to work with different types of commercial business models as well, which I think really helps you as an HR professional, really develop your overall commercial skillset too.

Jo Sweetland:

00:01:22:16 - 00:01:47:08

Brilliant. Well, I'm looking forward to speaking with you today, Jackie. So as I mentioned, Jackie is here to help us talk about the retention stop on the employee lifecycle journey. So when thinking about retention, you know, culture tends to be one of the key aspects that drives higher retention rates within organizations. So let's start from you know, this point actually, Jackie, how do you develop a culture that encourages people to stay?

Jackie Lanham:

00:01:47:10 - 00:02:45:12

Yeah. You know, I really agree with you. And when you look at this culture point, it's interesting because culture is around whether you're you're developing it or not, you've got a culture within your business. And one of the things that I think is very important to do is to be very clear within your culture, what's the purpose of your overall business?

We all know, you know, you and I, we want to work for businesses and that are driving so much more than just that. The bottom line, you know, what are we there to do for equally, what are the values and what are the principles that are going to guide us. And if you can get those set and get those set realistically, and when you're in the hiring process, then you're going to be really ensure that the people that you've you've gone out to recruit are more likely to stick with your organization. If they buy into that articulation of that culture through your purpose, values, principles, etc.

Jo Sweetland:

00:02:45:12 - 00:03:38:01

Let's come back to leadership in a second, Jackie. So just once again, just just looking at that culture aspect. And it's interesting because if you look about, you know, some of the, the best well known cultures for retaining their talent, the Googles of this world, which has a retention kind of rate of between 90-95%, you know, that's due to career progression. Well being, you know, that they're packages in terms of see what they how they were numerate people, you know, compared to, let's say, a Patagonia, a US, retail organization whereby retention rates are 90 to 96%, which are exceptionally high. But it's more to do with, you know, environmental sustainability well being. So that real purpose out there isn't from a culture perspective, one one fits works for all is that it's different for every organization.

Jackie Lanham:

00:03:38:01 - 00:03:55:24

I think you're absolutely spot on there, and it's how that organization articulates it that enables the employee to know if this is a business. I want to join. You know, that organization by setting out their stall and saying, this is what you'll get if you join us. And they absolutely deliver on that.

Jo Sweetland:

00:03:55:24 - 00:03:55:24

Yeah.

Jackie Lanham:

00:03:55:24 - 00:03:58:50

The employees more likely to stay.

Jo Sweetland:

00:03:59:00 - 00:04:00:00

Yeah, absolutely.

Jackie Lanham:

00:04:00:00- 00:04:13:11

As soon as you hear a message that says you can get A, B, C and D, and you don't get A, B and C and D as you walk through the door, the person is going to be gone. And you know, that costs a lot of money in terms of training development, you know, lost opportunity through the recruitment process.

Jo Sweetland:

00:04:13:11 - 00:04:31:19

Absolutely. So I'm going to ask you, Jackie, in terms of, you know, from the wider piece outside of your area, FMcG, you know, what sectors do you feel are seeing high retention rates and also high attrition rates?

Jackie Lanham:

00:04:26:29 - 00:04:30:10

Oh, I don't know. Jo. I think you can answer that one. Like you're in the recruitment game.

Jo Sweetland:

00:04:30:10 - 00:05:57:08

Well, I'll try that shall I. So very much, you know, we very much see from a retention rate and definitely at leadership level, you know, the financial services organizations for many different reasons in terms of, client relationships, the renumeration level, etc. You know, the banking, insurance markets, legal services, pharmaceutical because of the nature of the longevity of clinical trials, utilities, business, etc., highest attrition rates typically see from a leadership perspective or within the technology environments, retail high pressures, especially with high street orientated retail organizations, healthcare, specifically the NHS, private healthcare.

And obviously the hospitality and leisure was a really interesting point there, which I'd like to come onto here, Jackie, is dissatisfaction at leadership level. And is there a correlation? Because if you look at the top four highest levels of dissatisfaction at leadership level, it is your retailers, as you'd expect in terms of high attrition healthcare. But then you've got to education and financial services, which have a relatively high retention rate.

So is there a connection or correlation, I should say, between retention dissatisfaction and corporate culture?

Jackie Lanham:

00:05:57:08 - 00:07:44:17

I think that's that's a really good question. And you've got to see a link haven't you? And again, it's going back to people are different. They sign up for different things. And I guess I'm probably sound a bit like a record, unless you can really set your stall out and make sure that that's right for that individual to make that choice, then you are going to end up with with a dissatisfied person, and that you do absolutely need to look at the whole holistic approach.

When you're looking at how you recruit somebody, how you develop them and how you keep them motivated within the organization. So it will play into, as we know, through these particular podcasts, every part of the journey. And what's important is that you make sure that that purpose, your culture, is woven into every part of your journey as well.

Yeah, it's a bit like the Patagonia example, isn't it? Around, you know, really great stuff around the environment. If you then experience where you're going to have to come into several interviews, you're going to have to drive to see us all the time. Somebody is going to start to the question, hang on, how does that live up to, you know, your value around sustainability?

Why can't we have a couple of these touchpoints, you know, online or whatever? That's just one example. So you really do need to make sure that you've kind of got to weave it into every stage in the Hilton Foods. When we developed our work around culture, yes. We spent a lot of good time around listening to people getting a real sense of how we wanted to be able to portray that culture.

But the real Spadework came in when we said, okay, how does this stand up through the recruitment process, through the development, through, how we support people with various benefits, etc.? So we really have to look at it holistically.

Jo Sweetland:

00:07:44:17 - 00:08:10:45

Yeah. It's it's not just one thing, is it? It's a combination of all of them. So let's go back to the point you made in terms of leaders, which I think is a really important.

People forget that sometimes Sunday in terms of and I'm sure you know, everyone who's listening has had a leader. They think, I don't really want to work for this organization because of that individual. What are you doing at Hilton Food Group with regards to helping develop your leaders to increase the retention?

Jackie Lanham:

00:05:57:08 - 00:09:52:10

We've been doing some really interesting work with our leaders who I have to say have been fabulous in collaborating with us and again, going back to that holistic point, it doesn't work if you've just got the human resources department putting the muscle in.

It really has to be a kind of collaborative effort across the whole organization, in partnership with your leaders and some more recent piece of work we've done, which has been incredibly interesting, is to take, our values, our culture, and start to think about what that means in respect to the behaviors that we're looking for in our leaders.

We worked with, an organization to then develop a profile, that we could ask our leaders to complete to see how they really show up in respect to those particular behaviors. That's allowed us to get a sense of our culture and where our deficiencies might be, but also what the things are that we are great at.

And we need to keep doing. What we've done now is we shared that work back with our leaders for them to start to think about their own personal development, and we're supplementing that through 360 as well. So they get a sense of how they see themselves show up, but they will also get a sense of how other people see them show up as well.

So that's one key, a piece that's been really quite exciting for us. The other piece is, we've worked very hard on, colleague engagement within the business. And, we've gone from if I go back over five years ago where it's going to sound really healthy, we have 72% of colleagues tell us how they felt in our business every time we did our, employee engagement survey.

This year, we got up to 94%.

Jo Sweetland:

00:09:53:00 - 00:09:53:03

Wow.

Jackie Lanham:

00:09:53:45 - 00:10:14:01

The only way you get up to 94% is because people know that when they give the feedback, it's listened to and it's acted on, otherwise they wouldn't bother. So, that's been fascinating to see. And, and you don't see that kind of turnaround after one year to three years. That's a 4 or 5 year journey.

Jo Sweetland:

00:10:14:09 - 00:10:17:02

It's incredible results, isn't it? In terms of 94%,

Jackie Lanham:

00:10:17:02 - 00:10:14:01

94% have completed it. And, everybody has their different measures, but we're at 82% employee satisfaction, which we're very pleased with given where yeah, it's it's a tough environment for our people. So working in cold environments, and they're on the production floor, the majority.

Jo Sweetland:

00:10:36:09 - 00:10:36:15

Yeah.

Jackie Lanham:

00:10:36:15 - 00:10:41:22

So it was really great to get that feedback. So I guess they're seeing their leaders kind of walking the talk.

Jo Sweetland:

00:10:41:22 - 00:10:58:15

Absolutely. And just just on, you know, talking about leadership development, talking about getting the right culture to retain talent. How does that you know, when you considering diverse talent groups, what are you doing at Hilton with regards to that.

Jackie Lanham:

00:10:57:21 - 00:13:26:54

So within Hilton, if I pan back to eight years ago, we were largely a male dominated, business. So it's not unusual. Probably lots of people listening to this podcast will be used to the fact that they, if they're female, they might have turned up in, in my kind of role and been the only woman on the team.

I hate to say it out loud, it's probably an easier function to introduce diversity into the business. But you take you take it, don't you? You take what you can get. And, what we decided to do was really focus first on what I'll call the female agenda, for want of a better word. Because my view and, I believe many others view as well, is if you can start to make inroads in terms of improving the climate for your female, colleagues.

Then that starts to almost take a snowball effect. So we've got to the position now where, over 40% of our board, a female, 36% of our leadership roles are held by females as well. And that's been a concerted effort. And it's been an effort through looking at, leadership development and giving a bit more priority to women going through those kinds of experiences.

Because, again, it's been my experience, I've worked in different organizations that those types of leadership development events are normally are made available to women. And, then when they get into their early 30s and surprise, surprise, if you're going to have a kid and I what I did that was that's typically the period where you might be having children.

So therefore I was finding that women weren't benefiting from the leadership development opportunities that they needed. So when what we have been doing is, is allowing women to go through a little bit earlier than you would do normally, which I believe is really reaping dividends, as well. The other big thing focus for us is, really pulling females into P&L roles.

My view is that's where you crack it. Yeah. It's great that you've got females within, the people function in the marketing function. And in the finance function that you really crack it when you start to see women, in managing director roles, roles like yourself, for example, working as chief executive officers. And what's been great in the business is through succession planning, we've been able to bring women through into managing director roles.

And we've also been successful in hiring externally as well. Not easy, I have to say. Externally hiring.

Jo Sweetland:

00:13:26:54- 00:13:28:01

We know that, Jackie.

Jackie Lanham:

00:13:28:01- 00:13:31:24

You know that you guys have been fantastic and helping us with that.

Jo Sweetland:

00:13:31:24- 00:13:51:34

Thank you. Congratulations on the success. And I know, you know, in terms of some of your competitors, you know, you are ahead. You know, far ahead in terms of from a gender perspective, within your organization, which is a really positive direction.

You know, when you're looking at retention rates, Jackie, what do you think are acceptable retention rates?

Jackie Lanham:

00:13:51:34- 00:14:15:24

You know, it's really got to depend on the business you're in. I mean, the classics says, you should try try to head for no more than 7% turnover. But when we go back to the examples you've given, Jo, like, for example, retail or, the service sector around food, for example, they're going to have high turnover, aren't they?

I don't know what you did when you were at university and in your vacation time that I certainly

Jo Sweetland:

00:14:15:34 - 00:14:17:54

it's a blur. It's a blur. Yeah.

Jackie Lanham:

00:14:17:54- 00:15:10:01

But you know, I, I did a mix of stuff and generally the stuff I was doing would be working in a factory, working, in a bar, etc. and those, you know, you've got that those are great opportunities for people to cut their teeth and develop.

They're not going to hang around in those roles longer term. I think when you're in those types of sectors, it's around being able to identify who are the people who are going to stick with it, who really want to move through the ranks. And if you look at McDonald's, for example, I mean, they've done some fantastic work, haven't they, in terms of their university and that kind of thing.

And they've got a real great mix of people that have gone through the ranks into leadership roles. And they've also got great examples of university college kids who have used it as a kind of a fill in opportunity as well.

Jo Sweetland:

00:15:10:01 - 00:15:23:12

And on that, you mention and I agree with you, you know, in terms of you mentioned, you know, 7% in terms of from an attrition rate, do you think that varies depending on kind of leveling?

If you're looking at the exec, you know, minus one, minus two, does that vary?

Jackie Lanham:

00:15:23:12 - 00:16:25:34

Yeah. You'll tend to see it at a lower level, at the more senior levels for sure. And if you look at, say, the average tenure of a chief exec now is something like five and a half years, I think. So you will find it lower.

And I think also the other thing to think about is when you're looking at those kind of metrics, where is the business at the moment in terms of the stage of its development? So if I think of the business I was working for before Hilton Foods, an amazing organization, which got taken over by another amazing organization, and we needed to keep the show on the road for 18 months so that we had a fantastic business to sell.

Or if the deal didn't go through, it's still a fantastic business to continue, and we knew we couldn't suffer any attrition at the most senior leadership levels. And in fact it was zero. Attrition through that 18 months period of time. But that meant we also had to be quite cute around incentive, incentives in place to encourage people to stay is what is making sure that they had a really good quality job through that period.

Jo Sweetland:

00:16:25:54 - 00:16:42:14

Good. You've led me nicely onto the next question in regard to incentives, jacki. You know, what do you feel are the incentives that encourage people to stay and leave? Obviously, bear in mind when you when you're talking about this, let's let's think about diverse, groups of talent as well.

Jackie Lanham:

00:16:42:14 - 00:18:46:14

So I mean, when you, when you're looking at this first off, people stay in businesses where they're appreciated for what they do.

And yeah, money's great. Money will get you a some good performance, but it's not going to get you a sustained performance. You need to look at other types of rewards along the way as well. And I hadn't heard that you go there. Somebody says, thanks, Jackie. You did a great job there. I really appreciated what you do.

That goes a long way. Yes, I want the cash as well. Please. I think having having that focus not just on, what you give somebody in terms of their salary or their bonus if they're in a bonus full role, is really important. So, you know, things like making sure the ice cream truck turns up when it's really hot outside, giving those vouchers out from, in our business retailers, that we work with again are really important reinforcements for people of the good job they do.

And then obviously, you get into the looking at the more executive, kind of range of benefits where you're looking at people's annual bonuses, long term incentive plans. I just think that you need to be careful around these things. And I know in some sectors it's par for the course. If you're in finance, this is what gets delivered.

But I know one business I worked in, they could almost be seen as golden handcuffs with people saying, I'm not really happy here, but I'm staying because in three years time I'm going to get this pay out. And, I won't say who the business was, but it got to the point of being quite unhealthy. And in fact, when we did some work on how the directors in the business felt about being employed by the organization, there was a lot of dissatisfaction, but the turnover was low.

So that's where you get into, you know, when we talk about being more holistic and you approach really looking at every type of thing and how it links together in terms of, you know, retaining people or in fact encouraging them to leave as well.

Jo Sweetland:

00:18:46:14- 00:18:47:02

Absolutely.

Jackie Lanham:

00:18:47:02- 00:18:53:05

But let's face it, if you're not paying market and people aren't going to stay, are they absolute best you when you're in a competitive, industry with us?

Jo Sweetland:

0:18:53:05 - 00:20:07:15

The thing isn't in the marketplace at the moment, terms of competition for talent. But, you know, just on what you just said in terms of, you know, the incentives, you know, we we recognize increasingly in this marketplace, you know, everyone has different priorities and wants within the work environment, you know, from everything from, you know, reward through to number of days in the office. And that's a conversation. I know this isn't a huge conversation. Yeah, but we saw this actually quite interesting. We saw this quite recently with a piece of work we were commissioned to do for a mid-cap organization who wanted, a reward benchmarking project, within their sector. And what was really interesting to see was how organizations now are having to think about the different generations, you know, and what they want within the work environment.

So even from a benefits perspective, what's important, let's say, to Gen X might be pensions, health care, etc. might not be as important to a Gen Y. With regards to they might be more interested in how do they get their deposit for the first house. They're not interested in the pension piece. So on that basis, how do you prioritize those incentives to accommodate a multi-generational workforce to ensure retention?

Jackie Lanham:

00:20:07:15 - 00:23:00:11

That's a great question, Joe. I mean, I try not to, pigeonhole to people too much, because sometimes generalizations can lead you down the wrong path as well. I always remember an interesting conversation with, somebody who said, yeah, that employee over 50, they're never going to grapple with this new system. And I was introducing in a team, and in fact, they were the best person compared to the other age groups within the team.

But I really do get your point. And at the end of the day, I think it's important to take a look at how your workforce is built. Where's your target focus? Because you're not going to be all things to all people. Interesting enough, we're doing a big piece of work on our employee value proposition at the moment, and we've gone out to all of our employees and asked them to tell us what they think is really important in terms of the proposition that we deliver to them.

I've just been looking at all the data, and to be honest with you, I have flexible working at the top. If it was me, I still survey end, but it's not. Is development opportunities. And that's probably coming from the fact that if I looked at the workforce, it will be not at the very younger end. But that's probably what's coming through in terms of the feedback, around, more of a shift, to that focus.

So I don't think you can say one size fits all, which is obviously not very helpful if you're trying to give people the answer. But I think that for me, the answer is talk to your people and listen to them. And we know there's lots of organizations out there who then kind of decided what's going to be the key thing for them around their employee value proposition.

And then that goes right back to the beginning of this conversation. Then you can be clear about what you get if you sign up to join us. Yeah. I think that going back to flexibility, there's been lots of discussions, obviously, going through the pandemic around having hybrid working, etc. but again, it's got to depend on the business you're in.

In my business, the majority of our people cannot work from home because they can't be on a production line in that bedroom. Sorry. Yeah. So again, we've had to kind of segment things to be clear around, okay, you're working in production, but what we will do is look at how we can give you flexibility around your shifts. Okay.

You're working in a group office role where there's a lot of travel. We'll look at where we we say so many days must be spent at a location at the business, and some days can be spent at home as well. So again, it's kind of segmenting, looking at the different roles and being clear to people what's on offer.

Right through and back to the interview stage. Because I get asked this question, an interview now.

Jo Sweetland:

00:23:00:11 - 00:23:01:22

Okay. That's interesting.

Jackie Lanham:

00:23:01:22 - 00:23:01:22

Yeah.

Jo Sweetland:

00:23:01:22 - 00:23:42:13

I mean, I think I think I love what you just had to say there in terms of actually ask the employees nothing. Lots people do actually forget to do that and, you know, come up with a, an array of things and kind of push it on to their employees.

But I think, you know, some of the most engaged workforces are those that feel they have a voice, feel that their leaders are transparent and they're being heard and listened to. So, you know, that's really, really positive. And what you just said, just looking at new hires coming into your organization or people's organizations, what practical things can you do to support new hires to make sure that they stay in or retained within your business?

Jackie Lanham:

00:23:42:13 - 00:25:05:23

I think there's a whole range of things that you can take a look at there. And again, it quite often will depend on the role, when I'm looking at more senior appointments, I do actually go right through to pre-boarding. So when we will have obviously some, senior level executives who are on quite long notice periods.

So we'll look at how we keep in touch with that person during that period. You know, I've got somebody at the moment. Well, we'll be talking every month before they join around. What's going on in the business, keeping them up to date, sending them articles that are coming through that type of thing. And that really will help the stickiness.

And it also helps them in terms of being able to get up to speed more quickly when they join, when you start to look at people more, working with in production or more junior roles, then you've got to be very well aware of the fact that you're not paying them yet. So I think you need to really observe, that, that we would look at things like, onboarding.

We've provided, toolkits for our leaders in terms of how they think about the onboarding process, who the bodies are for those individuals, what the key touchpoints are for them. And we recommend that there's more regular check ins with leaders. Jeff. Definitely during the first 3 to 6 months before you then transition in to the normal support that you'd give to somebody around performance appraisals and that type of thing and development.

Jo Sweetland:

00:25:05:23 - 00:25:20:24

Yeah. That's interesting. So I was actually going to ask you, how long do you think that support should last for, you know, is there okay, you've hit three months and that's it. Good luck. You know off you go. You know expand out a bit more on that for me.

Jackie Lanham:

00:25:20:24 - 00:25:59:22

I guess what I'd say is a 3 to 6 months is a guide.

But you have to take it based on the individual. You know, I've worked with people in our business where they're hot to trot. Really quickly, and you want to empower people and you let them go, but you have those touchpoints that you need to have. I've had other individuals, and I'll use good old fashioned situational leadership where you're going to, you know, we need to have a more regular conversation to kind of help keep you on the the straight and narrow, or at least give you, further guide rails and, you just have to can it's back to take it on the basis of the individual you're working with.

And if you have to invest more time, it's worth it.

Jo Sweetland:

00:25:59:22 - 00:26:41:34

Yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. And I think, you know, us as headhunters, you know, we have a responsibility as well within, you know, that process because I see a lot of, people within our world very much, you know, they feel their job is done once the deal is done.

In essence, you know, for for us personally, it only just begins in lots of ways. You know, we we keep in contact very, very regularly with, you know, candidates that we put into organizations, we offer coaching, but also when it comes to diverse talent, you know, and especially going into organizations whereby there aren't many people who look like them, you know, they need extra support to make sure that they flourish and embed really quickly within an organization.

Jackie Lanham:

00:26:41:34 - 00:27:08:08

I think you’re spot on there and the social side can be really important as well.

So it's making sure that you go the extra mile around, you know, let's go out for the team dinner. Let's get them involved in some of the social activities that we have within within the business. And when we start to look at buddies, how can we almost buddy people with people that have kind of gone through the some of the similar experience I have in terms of joining a business, can be really important as well.

Jo Sweetland:

00:27:08:08 - 00:27:18:32

Absolutely. And it's also helping them network, isn't it? You know, whether you've got ESG groups within the organization, peers mentoring, all that, that great stuff. So

Jackie Lanham:

00:27:18:32 - 00:27:23:54

Totally. And I've always found when you go out for buddies, people are enthusiastic to pass on their learning and support.

Jo Sweetland:

00:27:23:54 - 00:27:31:14

Good. How do you ensure that you don't over promise and under deliver on what's on offer to new hires?

Jackie Lanham:

00:27:31:14 - 00:27:55:34

Yeah, that's a really difficult one, isn't it? When you've got that really fantastic hire that you want to see through the door, I think it goes back to the beginning of our conversation. It's around making sure that you're really clear about what your culture is and what your employee value proposition is, and you're ensuring that you're working collaboratively with the leaders through that recruitment process.

I hate to get processy.

Jo Sweetland:

00:27:55:34 - 00:27:56:02

But you will,

Jackie Lanham:

00:27:56:02 - 00:28:12:02

but I will. Yeah, I do think it's important when you're going through the recruitment process that, you've got more than one person, talking with the candidate. You're giving the candidate the opportunity to meet others within the organization because it helps them really check things out as well.

Jo Sweetland:

00:28:12:02 - 00:28:12:24

Yeah.

Jackie Lanham:

00:28:12:24- 00:28:22:54

Obviously you don't want to make that a long out process because there's nothing worse. And, you know, when you hear somebody said, oh, I had ten interviews before I got that job, and that's just not going to work.

Jo Sweetland:

00:28:22:54 - 00:28:23:02

Yeah,

Jackie Lanham:

00:28:23:02 - 00:28:48:46

I think think very carefully about who that person is going to say, along the way, it might even at the most senior level, as you might want to put a lunch in or something like that as well, because it allows the candidate to really test things out too.

And, I don't think we should be frightened about that because, again, going back to one of the points of our discussion, just imagine all the effort you put into, that recruitment process and somebody turns up and it's not what they expected.

Jo Sweetland:

00:28:48:46 - 00:29:07:02

Well, I mean, I have to say, Jackie, having worked with you for many years now, you know, the process you put in place in engaging talent even before they come into your organization is, is, you know, more so than we see in lots of other organizations.

And you can see that engagement happening even before they start, which is really, really positive.

Jackie Lanham:

00:29:07:02 -

Yeah, that's great to hear. I mean, at the end of the day, you just want people to get what you want.

Jo Sweetland:

00:29:13:02 - 00:29:13:34

Yeah.

Jackie Lanham:

00:29:07:02 -

You know, I'd want to be treated in that way. And when you're not, it's so disappointing.

Jo Sweetland:

00:29:19:41 - 00:29:19:53

Absolutely.

Jackie Lanham:

00:29:19:53- 00:29:20:10

So disappointing.

Jo Sweetland:

00:29:20:10 - 00:29:26:20

Absolutely. How do you identify flight risks and manage it once identified?

Jackie Lanham:

00:29:26:20 - 00:29:53:46

Yeah, it's a really good question. I think one of the important things is to make sure you've got the check ins, obviously, from a leadership perspective, you're clear around around agreed objectives. So you can see how people are delivering. Obviously if you start to see productivity dip, the if you start to see, yeah, extra long sickness happening, that type of thing, those are really useful signals of dissatisfaction.

And the best way to pick those up is by leaders being really engaged with their people.

Jo Sweetland:

00:29:53:46 - 00:29:54:04

Yeah.

Jackie Lanham:

00:29:54:04 - 00:30:32:35

I have to say, obviously if you're talking about a new hire, then you'll be doing sort of three month check ins with them, etc., where you can pick up from there. Again, I've asked you, Joe, have an eye in the past just to check in with people to see how they feel after they've joined, which I know you always do, but sometimes I ask for that extra every now and again.

The other thing that was really, interesting is, I've been working with, an organization, called solved by AI, and they're even developing a tool where, you can start to look at what are different parameters for a particular business that would indicate to them that somebody is likely to become disengaged.

Jo Sweetland:

00:30:32:35 - 00:30:33:35

That's interesting.

Jackie Lanham:

00:30:33:35 - 00:30:54:46

I know it sounds a bit spacey. Getting a rocket ship, and you would have to spend the time to think about what are the things that would give indications to us? It could be down to somebody's work for the business. So long. Maybe, there's been a couple of, appraisals of, you know, if they've not had development opportunities, not been on development.

Jo Sweetland:

00:30:54:46 - 00:30:55:23

Yeah.

Jackie Lanham:

00:30:55:23 - 00:31:05:12

Course or something or had a coach, you know, all of those types of things you can then feed in and then you can get those wonderful AI bots to go search.

Jo Sweetland:

00:31:05:12 - 00:31:05:24

Yeah.

Jackie Lanham:

00:31:05:24 - 00:31:07:34

Now I haven't used it, but

Jo Sweetland:

00:31:07:34 - 00:31:08:22

I've got to say use it.

Jackie Lanham:

00:31:08:22 - 00:31:12:43

I'm quite interested in that. Yeah, it is a proposition.

Jo Sweetland:

00:31:12:34 - 00:31:35:12

Well, I mean, it's the way forward isn't it, if you think about it in lots of ways.

Because if you think about the cost of attrition, you know, it's a big problem, isn't it? And also that continuation of a business strategy if they lose their leaders, etc.. So an AI tool like that, who can identify flight risks and then you can intervene, you know, hopefully to secure that talent. It's it's exciting.

Jackie Lanham:

00:31:35:12 - 00:31:38:32

Yeah I think it's interesting.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Googles and Amazons

Jo Sweetland:

00:31:38:32 - 00:31:40:22

of course. Of course

Jackie Lanham:

00:31:40:22 - 00:31:44:34

because of course I do. I do find that quite an interesting, you know, string to the bow.

Jo Sweetland:

00:31:44:34 - 00:31:45:12

Yeah,

Jackie Lanham:

00:31:45:12 - 00:31:47:34

but there's nothing better than talking to people.

Jo Sweetland:

00:31:47:34 - 00:31:59:16

Absolutely. So in conclusion, Jackie, do you think, you know, if you think about the whole topic of retention within organizations, do you think there has been enough focus on retention in organizations to date?

Jackie Lanham:

00:31:59:16 - 00:32:22:02

I think it very much depends on what period of time you're at. Around. Have you got a wolf talent or, are you finding that you've got lots of people kind of queuing up for jobs? So that's me being rather cynical. Within our business. And I'd like to think within my career, I've absolutely focused on retention.

There needs to be a good mix, obviously. So, you also want to have those new ideas and new people coming through. But I always remember working for one business where the chief exec was challenged around the fact of we've actually got really high retention, a twitch. His answer was, I think I'd rather be in that position than than the reverse.

Yeah. So what I've also feel is, people functions as they've developed and have got that seat at the table and been seen to actually be part of the commercial proposition for the business. Then I've seen more focus as well start to come in around as we talked about purpose driven organizations, organizations that listen to their people, organizations that empower and set the leadership tone and really the voice at the table for making that a reality.

But of course, in partnership with the leaders should be the people function.

Jo Sweetland:

00:32:22:02 - 00:32:33:23

Absolutely. So to summarize, what would you say, Jacqui, with the three tangible do's and the three don'ts, when organizations are reviewing their retention strategies?

Jackie Lanham:

00:32:33:23 - 00:35:12:02

I would say in terms of the do's, be clear about what your employee value proposition is. Be clear about what your culture and values are, and make sure that you're absolutely living those.

In terms of the don'ts, make sure I always find don'ts difficult. I'm a bit of a do person, but that's positive. It's not a negative thing to think about. The way I've answered your question, I'll try and do it. That might not totally answer the exam question, which might mean that I don't pass the exam. I'd say, you must listen to your people in terms of developing that kind of kit around the culture and, and how you need to change and move forward as an organization so that that listening is incredibly important.

I'd also say empowering your people is incredibly important. One of the things I found interesting through example, the engagement survey work that we've done, there's always a bit of a pull around. What are the three key things? Jackie, your organization needs to improve and I can roll them off my tongue. But actually, what I'd rather have is each of our local businesses focusing on what are the three key things for them, because that's what really creates the kind of snowball effect sometimes the change you need.

So I think listening, empowering, are incredibly important. And I guess the other thing is I kind of go back to the dos again is, don't have leaders who are not walking the talk because people will walk out of the door straight away.

Jo Sweetland:

00:35:12:02 - 00:35:23:35

Absolutely. Jackie. Thank you. It's been wonderful to hear, you know, your insights on the retention stage of the employee lifecycle.

And as ever, a real pleasure to see you today. So thank you very much for your insights.

Jackie Lanham:

00:35:23:35 - 00:35:25:54

Thank you so much, Jo. Lovely speaking to you today. Thank you.