Episode 3: Succession & Development

Helen Webb:

[00:00:00 - 00:00:00]

Joe.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:00:00 - 00:00:18]

I'm Jo Sweetland, Managing Director at Green Park. Welcome to today's episode of High Beams, dedicated to lighting the way for HR people and talent and DEI leaders. We're delighted to welcome our guest today, Helen Webb, to this episode of the podcast. Welcome, Helen. It's a pleasure to have you here today.

Helen Webb:

[00:00:18 - 00:00:20]

Thank you. Thank you, Jo.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:00:20 - 00:00:30]

You're welcome. But before we start today's session, Helen, I'd really like for you to just give a bit of an overview of. Of yourself and your career to date. Yeah, sure.

Helen Webb:

[00:00:30 - 00:01:16]

So I'm the Chief People Officer at WH Smiths for people who are not familiar with the business as it is today. We operate in 31 countries around the world. Big North American business and a big business in Australia, as well as Europe, Asia and obviously the UK. We are a travel retailer and employ around 15,000 people. I have had a long career in HR and in general management, predominantly in retail. So I've worked for Morrisons, Asda, Marks and Spencer's and Sainsbury's. Had a little foray into financial services for Aviva. And my job before coming to WHSMITH was Chief People and Services Officer at the co op.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:01:17 - 00:01:47]

Fabulous. So, Helen, we're here to talk about the succession stop on the employee lifecycle journey. So let's jump into it. Succession planning, as we know, is a critical to building a sustainable organisation. And I know that over the last 20 years, speaking to chief people officers, at one point or another, they've always asked me, with regards to succession of their leadership teams or for themselves, what does succession planning mean to you and your organisation?

Helen Webb:

[00:01:47 - 00:02:32]

We're on a journey with succession planning. We're a fast growing organisation and coming out of COVID had a very fast start. So we've grown significantly in the last four years and that has stretched succession probably to the end of its tether. So we're putting in new processes at the moment and I suppose bolstering the capability that we have internally, because the number of people we have internally isn't going to meet the succession plan we've got for the future. So I think we're at a turning point, so it's incredibly important. We have five pillars of our people strategy for WH Smith and actual talent management. Succession development is one of those key pillars.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:02:32 - 00:02:43]

And you talk about, obviously you're at that turning point, looking at your succession planning for the next three, four, five years. How are you transitioning that? How are you focusing on that?

Helen Webb:

[00:02:43 - 00:03:42]

We are doing all sorts of things. We started with system, so we have Got new system in place. So we're using Dayforce because I think if it captures it in the system, it actually makes it live. People can access it constantly. It isn't something that comes out on one spreadsheet and one piece of paper once a year. So we're making it a live conversation and we've tried to build it into the rhythm and routine of the way our senior leadership team talk, work, function and obviously how we report from a governance perspective to the board. So I think you've got to make it an integral part of the system. System been wider than just technology so that people understand it's a constant. It's a constant conversation. It's a constant, I suppose, conversation about who you're bringing into the organization. So are we bringing in new people who will add to our talent pool? Are we bringing in people who have the capability to grow? Both of those things are really important to us as an international growing business.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:03:42 - 00:04:01]

And just on that point, which is quite an interesting one and, you know, it is a bit of a minefield when you think about the changing nature of organizations with the use of AI, you know, digital, etc. How are you kind of future proofing and thinking about the skill sets you might need in the next four, five, six years when it comes to succession, how are you thinking about that?

Helen Webb:

[00:04:01 - 00:04:22]

Yeah, we do have a rigorous strategy process that annually reviews where we are, what our strategy for the future looks like, identifying where we've got skill gaps and then going out to market to recruit those skill gaps. So it is a constant conversation about how we're changing, how we're morphing, what we need for the future.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:04:22 - 00:04:27]

If you were looking at an organisation who hasn't yet started on their succession plans.

Helen Webb:

[00:04:27 - 00:04:27]

Yes.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:04:27 - 00:04:36]

When is a good time to start a succession planning process and more importantly, who should be involved in deciding on who's on that succession plan?

Helen Webb:

[00:04:36 - 00:05:34]

First of all, now's always the time to start because everybody, you know, we all operate in the corporate world with business plans, with budgets, with clear strategies, particularly if you're plc, because you've got to share that strategy, obviously, with the market. So I think there's always a good time to start and that time starts tomorrow. You've got to make sure that you involve all your senior leaders and start the conversation with them first, because without top buy in with anything in the HR space, you know what it's like. You don't get anywhere and start where your organization is. So you have to start with the basics. If you've got nothing in place. And you've got to start with your system. If you've got a system in place but you've just not been using it. So I would always encourage somebody to have a look at where is my organization, what tools do I have to hand, what support do I do I have and essentially almost do a little mind map on all of those things. Before you start the conversation with your.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:05:34 - 00:06:09]

Chief exec, how do you find in terms of when you know, and I've heard this many a time when I was speaking to organizations and they're talking about the succession planning and the talent they might have now, especially from a leadership stylistically, etc, they've, they've looked at their succession plans and gone, okay, these individuals have identified high potentials who are to type. So they're looking at people from how do you change that? Thinking about is that always the best thing to do when you're looking at the leader? Leaders obviously deciding within their teams who are on that succession plan as well.

Helen Webb:

[00:06:09 - 00:07:01]

I think it depends where you are as an organisation and therefore that conversation with chief exec and your very senior team is the place to start because it may be for your organisation that actually recruits. Recruiting to type is exactly what you need. In our organization, we're having conversations about actually inclusion in its wider sense of what sort of different places do we want to operate and therefore what sort of different skills, whether that's language skills, whether that's the difference between, you know, actually commercial skills and what does that mean in the broader sense of the word. So I think you've got to start that conversation. I would argue for most organizations, unless you are super, super inclusive, there's always some difference you can bring to the table. But I know there are organizations out there that are already doing that, which is good, which is fabulous.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:07:01 - 00:07:23]

Yeah, absolutely. How do you, you know when. When once again, thinking about organizations who are doing this for the first time or you know, are on probably the earlier part of their journeys or succession planning, how do they or how do you in the past or now identify employees that should be in your succession plan? What are the kind of aspects you're looking for?

Helen Webb:

[00:07:23 - 00:08:36]

Yeah, I think it's an interesting one and I think many of us have started those conversations by playing with post it notes. HR people love post it notes, let's be honest. But it's about sitting down with your senior team and saying, let's have a look at the talent we've got and who really has got talent for the future. And you don't have to have some complicated measure about what does potential look like? Because I think sometimes the very simplest definition of potential, the best, which is have we got people that are capable of learning? Have we got people in our organization that are adaptable, that have demonstrated that by moving from very, you know, different jobs into different jobs and been willing to take on projects and they're the kind of people that you need to grow and to develop. I don't think it's that complicated. I think we can over complicate it sometimes. I think then when you've got your potential, you've got to then look at what your capabilities and knowledge gaps are and how do you fill those. And sometimes that's by growing internal people, or sometimes it's by actually going externally and finding those skill gaps somewhere else. But I think we can make it too much of a science rather than actually really good quality conversations with the leaders who work with their people every day and know their people.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:08:38 - 00:09:05]

I like your response there, Helen, because I think, you know, once again we see lots of organization where they've had a succession plan in place, let's say it's the nine box grid or in the past, which I know you're not a fan of, but they, they don't revisit very often and then they suddenly get to a situation where someone is either retiring or leaving and it's all panic stations, you know, things like that. I mean, how often should you be revisiting that succession plan?

Helen Webb:

[00:09:05 - 00:09:30]

Well, at the very least annually. But what we've got now in place are quarterly check ins with where we are and who's coming in and what the pipeline looks like. So on our group executive, it is a constant conversation, the people conversation on a monthly basis as to who have we brought in, where are the vacancies, where are we out to search at the moment, what development moves that we've got on the pad. Our people should be a constant conversation.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:09:30 - 00:09:56]

Yeah, absolutely. Let's come to diverse talent, which is, you know, a great opportunity. When you're looking at succession planning and you know, we've seen organizations such as yourselves, such as MasterCard, etc. You know, being more proactive when it comes to diverse talent and giving them the opportunities through succession planning. How do you within your business ensure that diversity is a key focus in your succession planning?

Helen Webb:

[00:09:56 - 00:10:58]

Yeah, we talk about it as our golden thread. It's a golden thread through our people strategy and you know, the board have signed up to the group executive have signed up and we've done a lot of work because I don't think you can start with recruitment. I think you have to start with the environment that you create because it has to be as inclusive as it possibly can before people join you. So you have to have conversations about, you know, what does inclusion mean in the organisation? What have we got in place? How do we encourage actually the diverse talent that we've got in the organization? Are we doing all that we can? Because I think only then when you bring diverse talent in, will diverse talent stay. So I think you've got to be confident in your environment before you go out to be proactively hiring. And I think it's a really good thing to proactively hire because there are bound to be people that you don't reach, there are bound to be people in your network you don't know. And I also think that you need somebody in that specialist space to help you do that.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:10:59 - 00:11:03]

And how do you measure the success of what you've just said in terms of. Especially with diverse talent as well?

Helen Webb:

[00:11:05 - 00:11:56]

I think we all measure through our engagement surveys. That's got to be the bottom line of how your people feel and whether they can bring their whole selves to work. But I think you've got quite a lot of indicators. You've got indicators in labour turnover, which is always measuring actually who is leaving your organisation. And what does diverse talent do in your organisation? Does it progress through the ladder? Does it not progress? Have you actually reviewed all your standard processes and procedures with an expert that can tell you whether you've got bias baked in or not? Because I think that's also crucial. So I think there are lots of different measurements you can go to that give you a picture about where you are and perhaps where you need to be. And I'm certainly not saying I'm sat here saying I work in the perfect organisation, I don't. But we've done lots of work to try and make our environment as supportive as it can be to talent coming.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:11:56 - 00:12:09]

In, which is a positive thing, isn't it? And I think the whole retention piece attached to succession is crucial. There's no point having succession planning if you can't retain the talent as a result of that, you know, because it's a costly exercise.

Helen Webb:

[00:12:10 - 00:12:10]

Certainly is.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:12:11 - 00:12:22]

Let's talk about the development aspect. When you're looking at succession, what development programs or initiatives do you have in place to prepare these high potential employees for leadership?

Helen Webb:

[00:12:22 - 00:13:08]

Yeah, it's an interesting one because we are just about to launch a new talent program for our high position potential people. But I've Always been a fan that that's only ever the icing on the cake. And actually what grows people is experience and exposure. And you've got to revisit those two things before you start putting people onto a program. Because if all you do is the high potential program, then people will leave you because they have to feel that actually having learned new skills, put new tools in their kit bag, that there are opportunities to use those and to develop accordingly. So whether that's possible projects, whether that's new assignments, whether that's been taken out of the day job for a couple of months to do something special, to go and investigate something, they're the kind of things that actually grow people. It's not always the talent programs. Yeah.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:13:09 - 00:13:17]

And that's a really great point because I think, you know, where we've seen great talent within organizations is those that have been moved cross functionally.

Helen Webb:

[00:13:17 - 00:13:17]

Yeah.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:13:17 - 00:13:19]

But also, you know, internationally.

Helen Webb:

[00:13:19 - 00:13:21]

Yeah, exactly.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:13:21 - 00:13:21]

Piece, isn't it?

Helen Webb:

[00:13:21 - 00:13:22]

Yes.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:13:22 - 00:13:37]

In terms of that growth and their experience of dealing with not just different skill sets, but different cultures within the same organization. So. Yeah, and that's something which, you know, once again, we work with many organizations, they just don't do that internal mobility and you know, as well as it should be done.

Helen Webb:

[00:13:37 - 00:13:38]

Yeah.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:13:38 - 00:13:43]

And is that something in terms of W.H. Smith and what you've kind of been driving that kind of cross border?

Helen Webb:

[00:13:44 - 00:14:02]

Oh, yes, and we have. We've got people all over the globe, whether that's Singapore, Australia, North America. Yes. And you know, actually sometimes it's not a hard sell. Our Australian business is based in Sydney and our North American business is based in Las Vegas. So not hard, not hard sell.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:14:03 - 00:14:21]

How do you obviously talking about, you know, looking at capabilities, technical skills, you know, within individuals, within the organization, on the succession plan, how do you balance technical skills with soft skills in terms of looking at leadership development and potential?

Helen Webb:

[00:14:21 - 00:15:01]

Yeah, I think that's an interesting one. And I think the softer skills are often harder. And I think there are lots of different kind of interventions that improve people's softer skills. Sometimes it is just the experience of having to go and manage a new team in a different location and you learn as you go. But I think you should never send anybody into that kind of environment without safety nets. So whether that's about a mentor, whether that's about coach, whether that is a development program, I think you've got to look at the individual and see what's best to suit them. But I don't think you should ever forget about the softer skills because that will make or break somebody. Not necessarily the tough commercial skills.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:15:01 - 00:15:04]

How are you assessing those softer skills in your succession plans?

Helen Webb:

[00:15:05 - 00:15:36]

I suppose we're probably still using quite a blunt instrument, which is the engagement feedback by team as to what people think of their manager, their leader. We do 360 in certain places for development programs and I think that's always enlightening for somebody, isn't it? But we're a very direct organisation, so if people have got an issue or if people think something's going wrong or people tend to voice what they think.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:15:36 - 00:15:37]

Yeah, which is good.

Helen Webb:

[00:15:37 - 00:15:39]

It's great. Oh no, it's fabulous.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:15:39 - 00:16:05]

Well, absolutely, because it's one of the things on a podcast that I was doing earlier with regards to retention. You know, open communication piece is crucial and some of the best leaders are those leaders where it's transparent so the employees get to voice. You know, obviously you don't want everyone voicing everything that they feel and think, but, you know, it creates more loyalty, I think, and stickiness within an organization when they feel they've been heard and listened to.

Helen Webb:

[00:16:05 - 00:16:07]

No, we do have a very direct culture, which is great.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:16:07 - 00:16:41]

Okay. So just going back, actually, some research I did once again looking at succession, looking at retention etc and engagement within an organization. Interestingly, the retail sector has quite a high attrition rate across the organization or sector as a whole. I think it's sitting between about 30 or 40% and at the leadership level is sitting at about 15 to 25%. So how do you ensure talent that hasn't made it onto the succession plan stays?

Helen Webb:

[00:16:42 - 00:17:26]

Yeah, I think that's always a tricky one, isn't it? And I do think it's still about movement. You've got to give people fresh challenges. And if you've got experts that are in roles because they are, you know, their particular sector of the retail industry and they've got specialism, then you have to make people valued. And value comes in all sorts of ways. It's about reward and it's also about recognition. And I think recognition for those people who perhaps don't want to progress but still want to learn and still want to develop or want to stay at their own level, I think that's equally important. So you have to know the individual to see what they want to do, where they do want to move, or actually you've just got to keep giving them fresh challenges and recognising for what they give.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:17:26 - 00:17:45]

Yep, good. Recent studies we've seen Deloitte PwC suggest that about 30 to 40% of organisations consider Their succession planning to be effective and strong. Succession planning isn't new. It's been going since what, 1950s. Why do you think this figure is so low then?

Helen Webb:

[00:17:46 - 00:18:25]

Well, I think it's an interesting one. I think as an activity either has focus in an organisation or it doesn't. I think why it often does in retail is because you're talking about big numbers of people and you're talking about new stores that have to be, you know, have to be populated with people who are going to run them. So I think that always generates a conversation. But if you're in a more static business and actually the top line is growing but the number of people you have doesn't grow, then maybe it's a different conundrum. I think it's always hard, it's always tough and you've just got to keep going.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:18:25 - 00:18:47]

Yeah. How far out? I had a conversation with a client not too long ago actually. They were talking about their succession plans and it was in the infrastructure, let's call it an infrastructure sector. And they were talking about the succession plans being 10 years out, which seems quite extreme but obviously it's to do with capital projects. But how, how far out do you typically look?

Helen Webb:

[00:18:49 - 00:18:50]

We look at three years out.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:18:50 - 00:18:50]

Okay.

Helen Webb:

[00:18:50 - 00:19:09]

Which in retail is probably, you know, we've got a three year plan, we've got a three year view of succession and we might have notes and addendums on it that says, well actually that person might be a bit longer than three years before they're capable of the next job. But that doesn't happen very often. So we've got a three year time horizon.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:19:09 - 00:19:21]

Perfect. And challenges, you know, we talked about many different businesses are on different, different stages of their succession plans. What challenges do you foresee in implementing a succession plan for organisations?

Helen Webb:

[00:19:22 - 00:20:20]

I think it's always hard and I think we all suffer from. Some of my succession plans have got the same name in several different boxes and I think that is always a common problem because everybody agrees on what the top talent in the organisation looks like. But it's that probably next level below that they're sort of bubbling unders and how you make sure they get the opportunities. I think that's where it becomes difficult. And obviously in a relatively small organization, at the top of an organization having enough people to fulfill potentially the growth that you're, you know, for us it's, it's all about growth for fulfilling the growth might be difficult and therefore you've got to also have. I always come out of a succession planning meeting talking about what my shopping list has got on it. And then you look at your shopping list about, well, what talent and capability do I need? And you then go out and buy it. But yeah, I think we all suffer from that problem of somebody's in several different boxes.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:20:20 - 00:20:32]

Yeah. How do you address that, though? I mean, that's, you know, there's a, you know, a senior leader with one individual sitting in four boxes. How are you. How are you getting them to change their minds and think differently then?

Helen Webb:

[00:20:32 - 00:21:04]

Well, I think sometimes it is hard to get them to change their mind because as I said, that top of the pyramid can often and be very small in an organization. So you have got to try and encourage people to say and look very hard at their structures and say, well, actually in that space you've got five people and two of them, you're saying are top talent. And yet potentially looking at our growth, we've got five big vacancies at the next level up, we're going to have to swap a few people out. And that can be a very tough conversation. A very tough conversation.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:21:04 - 00:21:19]

Do you find it easier with regards to, you know, completing a succession plan with international remits rather than just, for example, if it was a UK business like co op that you previously. Do you find it easier on that aspect?

Helen Webb:

[00:21:21 - 00:21:47]

Sometimes it's easier, sometimes it's harder. I mean, I've already joked about Sydney and Las Vegas, but you're still asking people to uproot their families and to move the other side of the world. So I think sometimes it can be harder as well because it is quite an ask. So, you know, in the co op it was probably easier because we could move people around divisions and they were all based in one office in Manchester. That's different than trying to move people.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:21:47 - 00:22:09]

Okay. And just in conclusion, so just thinking about, you know, succession plans, success of succession plans, and where you've also seen succession plans not doing so well. How. How would you advise people to kind of measure the success and effectiveness of their succession plans for the health of the business for the future?

Helen Webb:

[00:22:09 - 00:22:46]

Yeah, I mean, I'm planning. I've only been in the organization 18 months, but we are planning on having, you know, that yearly coming up to a year since we sort of nailed down our first proper succession plan since I started. We're coming up to that. Well, let's measure what was our success, what did we actually say last year and what have we achieved? So how many people have we moved, how many people have we promoted, how many people have we recruited? And I think You've then got to look at those numbers in the context of what you had planned to do and then sit around the table as a top team and say, is that success or is it not? And if it's not, what we're going to do differently next year to make it successful next year.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:22:46 - 00:22:57]

I know this is quite probably a tough question for me to ask you. If you look at the people in the succession plans, let's say how many would be new versus existing?

Helen Webb:

[00:22:58 - 00:22:59]

The majority are existing.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:22:59 - 00:23:00]

Okay. Which is good.

Helen Webb:

[00:23:00 - 00:23:01]

Yes. Yeah.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:23:01 - 00:23:27]

So that internal ability is a very positive thing. Isn't that career progression of fabulous? Helen. Thank you. And if we, if we obviously think about everything that we've discussed today with regards to the succession and development stop within the employee life cycle, what would you advise would be the tangible three do's and three don't. For organisations thinking about their succession plans,.

Helen Webb:

[00:23:27 - 00:24:31]

I would say do start with your people strategy. Look at reflecting your business strategy. Do a big conversation with your very senior team to get buy in. And I would say do try and keep it alive. Whatever your cadence is of your executive meetings, talk about it and talk about what changes that have been since last month and what's going on. Don't. Unless your business is really used to system, don't use system. First go to post it notes. It always works. People love playing with post it notes. They love it. Absolutely love it. And what I also wouldn't do is I wouldn't be looking for technology solutions to problems that actually are about good conversations with people and really understanding your people. So I wouldn't go to assessment before you actually have spoken to line managers and understand the people that work for them.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:24:31 - 00:24:45]

That's interesting. And just on that point, I know we didn't really touch on it in terms of data, tech, etc. When we're looking at high potentials, there are obviously organizations out there who put tech attached to kind of performance of individuals.

Helen Webb:

[00:24:45 - 00:24:45]

Yes.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:24:45 - 00:24:46]

How do you feel about that?

Helen Webb:

[00:24:47 - 00:24:53]

I think it's important, but it has its part to play and I would never put that in the place for good conversation.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:24:53 - 00:24:56]

Absolutely. Open comms is always a way forward, isn't it?

Helen Webb:

[00:24:56 - 00:24:56]

Yeah.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:24:56 - 00:25:05]

Helen, it's been wonderful having you here today. Thank you for your incredible insights in terms of the succession stage of the employee lifecycle. And good to see you as always.

Helen Webb:

[00:25:05 - 00:25:06]

Thank you. Thanks very much, Jo.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:25:06 - 00:25:07]

No worries.