Episode 2: Engagement & Buy-in

Jo Sweetland:

[00:00:02 - 00:00:07]

Hi, I'm jo sweetland. I'm the managing director of the executive search business here at green park.

Raj Tulsiani:

[00:00:07 - 00:00:11]

I'm raj tulsiani, founder of green park and chair of race quality matters.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:00:16 - 00:01:34]

Employee engagement is a critical factor for any organisation's success. In simple terms, it refers to the level of commitment and passion that employees feel towards their work and company and is heavily tied to purpose and meaning. In a working environment, higher levels of worker engagement can lead to better productivity rates, innovation in work and loyalty retention. Therefore, leaders will understand that building and maintaining employee engagement is a top priority. The UK has one of the least engaged workforces in Europe, ranking 33 out of 38 countries. According to Gallup's 2023 engagement survey, only 23% of UK employees are actively engaged at work, with 62% not engaged and 15% actively disengaged. In today's episode, we'll focus on the engagement and buy in stage. In the employee lifecycle, we'll cover everything from ways of working to building the right sort of culture in the hopes of giving you tangible takeaways and action points to improve engagement and buy in across your organization. So I'd like to kick off today's podcast with some introductions. I'm Jo Sweetland, Managing Director at Green park and I'd like to introduce Raj Torsiani.

Raj Tulsiani:

[00:01:34 - 00:01:35]

Morning, Joe.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:01:35 - 00:01:45]

Morning. We're delighted to welcome our guest, Jordan Barry Bayliss to this episode of High Beams podcast. Welcome, Jordan. It's a pleasure to have you here today.

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:01:45 - 00:01:46]

Pleasure to be here.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:01:46 - 00:01:50]

Before we get into the session today, Jordan, do you want to give us a bit of an overview of yourself?

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:01:51 - 00:02:22]

Oh, God. Right. Okay. So I. I guess most recently I was a. The youngest CPO Chief People Officer on the FTSE 100. And then since then I've kind of gone back to having a bit more of a portfolio career, really, with a bit more flexibility. So I'm doing a lot of senior advisory work, a lot of retainer work, doing a lot of coaching team and CEOs and various entrepreneurs. So it's. I'm just enjoying the variety, really, and getting to work with people that I really like and respect. So it's a. It's quite a privilege.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:02:22 - 00:02:53]

Good benefit of your job, right? Yes, thank you, Jordan. So, looking at obviously our session today, our session today is on engagement and buy in. And as we all know, there's been substantial changes for both employers and employees to contend with and adapt to over the last few years following the pandemic. So let's start by looking at where we are today with engagement and the new approaches that address the needs of the modern workforce. What would you say, Jordan, looking at the first question here, are these new approaches and new ways of working?

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:02:54 - 00:04:31]

I think, let's be honest, I think most kind of employee engagement surveys are an iteration of what's been before. But I think increasingly the surveys that kind of focus on what the future generation would look like and I think what we kind of missing from a corporate perspective at the moment is that kind of change in generational appetite. So I think the engagement surveys that measure the things that are going to be important to the next generation, the Z's and the A's, that's probably where I'm seeing you'll get the most bang for your buck in terms of really understanding what the future looks like. I think if we survey people based on what our generation thinks is important, I think that's going to be quite limited. And I think as well, I think one of the things I'm seeing quite a lot with quite a few of my clients is that I think the biggest gap in the employee engagement survey is the fact that a lot of organizations aren't following up as thoroughly with their employees. So I guess there is a bit of a sentiment out there at the moment around, well, why do you keep surveying as if you're not going to take any notice and do something about the stuff that we're saying that we're not happy about? So I think, you know, there's a huge opportunity for senior leaders to get out there and start saying, okay, well, we've heard you tell us that you're not happy about this and this is what we're going to do about it. And I think, I think after lockdown there's a bit of a, there's still a missing connection with senior leaders and their employees because also we're kind of battling with a hybrid workforce. And what does that mean? You know, are people going in three days a week? Are they doing two days? And I think that balance of, you know, you know, really cementing the culture because people are connected and they're in the office, but also giving them the freedom to do what they want to do and have that flexibility, particularly for women who tend to be the primary carer.

Raj Tulsiani:

[00:04:31 - 00:05:26]

Do you think it's all a bit backward facing though, Jordan? You've been HR director in lots of different industries, CPO in big companies, complex change environment, some really chewy problems you've had to work through just in the time that we've known each Other and you know, we're now in a really different world, aren't we? There's this whole thing about, you know, people not wanting to work. There's a whole thing about segmentation of experience and culture within businesses based on someone's identity. And I don't get into identity politics but you know, it's coming to the workplace near you, isn't it? Then there's this whole thing around hybrid working. There's just so much complexity. So as a chief people officer, you know, when your board is going, look, we really need to fit feel that we know our people better. Is looking at future generations more important than who's in that business today and how we're going to keep hold of them?

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:05:26 - 00:06:46]

Absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, what do we know about, you know, the Gen Zs and the Gen Gen A's? Well, they're more diverse and more connected than ever any generation we've seen before. And I think also because of what's happened and what's gone on for them and obviously social media has been a means of connectivity, hasn't it, with, you know, staying in touch, particularly through lockdown. So we've actually bred a generation, kids and young adults who are very different to us. And I think if you think about what's going on economically, the fact that most of this generation probably won't own their own homes, they look around and look at the climate crisis and all these things that are going on, I think if I'm being honest, I think they're looking at the top of the organization, at the boomers in particular, and thinking, well, I can't really connect with your generation. What are you leaving us? And I think probably unwittingly we've ended up breeding a generation of talent that has really different values and expectations to us as a result of that. And I think, I'm not sure we're spending enough time really thinking about, well, what does that mean from, from an employee perspective, but particularly, you know, how do you engage them and how do you create an employee proposition that's really attractive to that generation who has completely different values and expectations. And I don't think we're spending a lot of time doing that as senior leaders. And I think it's a missed opportunity.

Raj Tulsiani:

[00:06:47 - 00:07:02]

Can a CPO help an organization understand all of the ways of working that all of the people want to operate in and still deliver the right commercial outputs? I mean, is there a limit to this?

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:07:02 - 00:07:11]

I think there's absolutely a limit and I think, you know, it's Too convenient and probably a bit lazy of organizations to be relying on chief people officers to fill that gap.

Raj Tulsiani:

[00:07:11 - 00:07:11]

Good job.

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:07:11 - 00:08:35]

I think if you're a leader and you're not interested in what the next generation is doing, then there's probably a question about are you really an effective leader? So yeah, I think that's really, really key. And I think also I'm not sure, I think there's so much going on at the moment. I think there's so much around profit in particular environment where the economy's quite squiffy. I think profit at the expense of everything is driving a very different type of behavior around the top table. So I'm seeing certainly lack of trust around the top table, short term strategy because we're trying to preserve shareholder value. And I think also if you are only acting in the interest of shareholder value, how aligned are you to what's really going on for people? You know, we've seen it, aren't we? We're seeing the impact on customer services. You know, every time you ring anyone that's providing you with a service, it's really underwhelming. More often than not, profit is taking that away. Similarly, employee engagement. So our leaders with all of this other stuff to focus on protecting their interests, shareholder value, do they have the time and head space to be focusing on next generation of talent and how this is impacting engagement? And I think probably not. I think the really successful leaders, you know, and there's a handful of those and businesses that we know about that do this really, really well, they will be the ones that are going to be around and leading the charge and everyone else will probably follow or fall by the wayside. I think so.

Raj Tulsiani:

[00:08:35 - 00:08:42]

I think there's pros and cons. Right. So Jordan is saying, you know, there's a short termism because people are looking at profit.

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:08:42 - 00:08:42]

Yeah.

Raj Tulsiani:

[00:08:42 - 00:09:04]

Which I completely agree with. But there's also lots of organizations that are saying, oh, you should come and work with us or stay with us because of our purpose. So I'm asking, you know, in your experience, is a lot of that box ticking or are people just trying to find a balance day by day by saying that we are one of the good guys, but we're also a business that you know is commercially viable.

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:09:04 - 00:09:56]

I think, I think purpose is so important, isn't it? Particularly to the next generation? You know, why are you getting out of bed every day? I think purpose to us as individuals. I mean, a lot of the work that I do on a private client basis with my CEOs or, you know, various clients is around taking them back to finding their purpose. Because so much, so many of us kind of miss that. And I think that the real kind of path to true happiness and enlightenment is really understanding what your purpose is. Whether that's at work, whether that's. Personally, I think it's applicable to everybody. But we know, don't we, the organizations with a really strong purpose are the ones that are attracting the next generations of talent because it's genuine and it's authentic. But I don't think a lot of. I think a lot of organizations have a purpose written down, but whether they live and breathe that purpose, you know, and it's something that you can feel and it transcends the whole organization. There's probably more that write about it than actually do it.

Raj Tulsiani:

[00:09:56 - 00:10:15]

With these new ways of working and the challenges that they bring, you know, who do you see as the winners and losers here? Because there is this real tension between organizations wanting to be one of the good guys, but also having the reality of the economic world in which we live in.

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:10:15 - 00:13:03]

I think, look, I think what do we know about the next generations that we probably don't know enough about yet? We know that they're looking for something that's a bit more bespoke and tailored to them, but I think there are limitations with how that looks to an organization. I think the key is as well, I think, as organizations, I think if you're behind the curve, you'll be more inclined to follow a one size fits all approach and probably something that you've read about. And it feels like a bit of a generic or flash in the pan kind of approach and solution to what you're doing. But I think what I am quite interested in is the amount of, you know, the progressive organizations that are spending a lot of time listening to their employees. So an employee listening strategy, we talk about employee value proposition, all those types of things, but an organization and leadership that are genuinely plugged in and listening to what's going on in the ground, I think as long as you stay connected to your people, you should really understand what their needs are and what their expectations are of coming to work. I don't think you ever get it completely right. And I think also as much as it's about understanding the expectations of your employees and the various different generations that you have, which is also really hard because different generations want different things, there's also got to be a narrative back from organizations that's quite explicit about. It's a bit like that, given the get so if it's a contract as well, we expect X, Y, Z of you. So you know the fact, the idea that you're going to be working from home five days a week and that's just not going to happen. And these are the reasons why. So I think organizations have to be really clear and explicit on what they're offering, but also what they expect back in return. I think that's really important. And I think the organizations that we know that are really good at that have really high employee engagement, really high performance. I think the other thing is as well, I think unfortunately a lot of leaders, although they know academically the stuff that the kind of the ingredients of driving really good employee engagement and great culture, it still feels quite alien to them in terms of how do they translate that into something that feels comfortable, do they have the confidence to do it? They know academically that it sits over there, but I think it's the application. And I think for me, a lot of the work that I did when I was a CPO and it sounds really basic, but it was about the humanization of the executive committee. You know, who are these people? What do they stand for? Are they accessible? Are they real? And giving people that kind of confidence as a senior leader to show up as themselves at work, rather than how they think a senior leader should show up or how society tells you a senior leader should behave and think. So I think in organizations like that, where leaders are accessible and they are authentic, I think that has a huge impact on how bought in people are.

Raj Tulsiani:

[00:13:03 - 00:14:46]

One of the things that I struggle with intellectually is people want more freedom and they want to work from home. Yeah, generally. Right. And so if you are Goldman Sachs or whoever and you say look, it's five days back in the office, people have a real strong reaction to that. Yeah, I can understand that even with my limited capacity. But where I find it quite trick is around this idea of isolation and disconnection. So particularly with younger or less experienced staff, they want to be at home more but then they often struggle with this idea of I don't, this company doesn't provide anything for me. So they're isolated. And then if they're isolated, they're disconnected. And if they're disconnected, there's this kind of blurring of work life boundaries. If what they're doing is quite transactional, they have no value for the organization, they'll just go and work somewhere else. So I'm interested in exploring how an organization can think about this as a problem with a view on ways of working, but also what is going to affect retention and loyalty because particularly in these difficult markets, everyone values loyalty. And you know, with Brexit and globalization and all sorts of other things that have affected the British economy, the idea of buying our way out of trouble through a global talent market is more tricky than ever. So, you know, we think retention is a massive thing. But yeah, it's very tricky for an organization, even with authentic leaders, to look at itself and get a real balance sheet of what people think.

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:14:47 - 00:18:51]

I think it's. We're in this kind of perfect storm at the moment where there's just so much going on. It's just inevitable that companies are going to get some of these things right and some of it wrong. I think that also if you think about what drives people to join an organization and go in every day, I mean, are you working with great people and do you work for someone that you really respect? And I think increasingly I'm certainly seeing less focus on that from organizations. But also we've not really invested in leadership development. Over the last five years, leaders have been kind of focused on strategy, They've been focused on getting governance right. You know, contending with. How do you get people back into the organization without feeling like they're forced? And then we've kind of settled again. But we've settled in something that feels a bit uncomfortable because neither are we satisfied with where we settled because it's not working. You know, we talked about it before, but I think particularly the market at the moment, there's so much pressure on leaders to generate, you know, short term financial gains. It's having a detrimental effect, I think, on so many different things. I think the ideology of why you go into an office is the same for every generation. You know, like we said before, are you enjoying the people that you work with? Do you like them? Are you doing good work? You know, interesting stuff. Is it aligning to your values? You talked about purpose, really powerful. So you know, is it a purpose, something that you can connect with and you feel like you're acting in the interest of the business because it's something that kind of reconciles with you. So I think it's so multifaceted, isn't it, this kind of problem that we're experiencing. But I think we also know some organizations are doing it really, really well. And again, it's because they are listening to employees and they're human. And I think people have sick to death of organizations spewing narratives around. We value you, we rate you, you mean something to us when their behavior does the absolute opposite. So I think also it's probably a time for leaders to think about what they do rather than what they say. Because often you get an absolute incongruence, don't you, with we say this, but we do the opposite. It's a bit like, you know, the executive committee that don't actually appreciate and understand that the culture starts with them around the top table. They're the North Star, and how they show up, how they behave sets the whole tone for the organization. And so often you see executive committees that think that culture is something that's separate to that. So, you know, we're entering a period of truth, I think radical candor. And I think that those who don't start to get that and behave accordingly. Well, I think we've seen it time and time again. So many people being exposed at the moment for behaving in the wrong way. Politics, bullying. People are sick of it. They want change. And I think as we enter that kind of period of time where ultimately a lot of the boomers will roll off and probably roll into non executive director roles, you've got the introduction of Generation X and Y as the next generation of leaders, and their expectations of what good looks like are very different. And I always used to find that part of my conflict was because I was part of that generation and not the boomers. The way that I viewed the world and what I thought was good was often a source of conflict with the peer group that I sat with. And that's why now I do what I do. Because if you're the lone voice around the table who's probably more connected with what's going on in an organization, but nobody's listening to you, then what's the point in that? And I think I'm doing a lot of work with senior HR people at the moment who are really disenchanted with what does the role of a CPO really look like in today's times when you don't have executive committees that listen to what you're saying, everybody thinks they're an expert in people, and they're not. So it's kind of diluting the whole role of the chief people officer. And if you've got someone really talented who knows what they're doing in the people space, then why aren't organizations listening to them similarly? I'm sure there's people that aren't in that space, but I think hire someone great in HR and listen to what they're saying to you. I think that's really important if you've got a great cpo, listen to what they're telling you about what you need to be doing in the organization instead of doing everything else. So yeah, it's interesting.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:18:51 - 00:19:10]

John, I just want to touch on the point you mentioned about with organizations looking at going back to kind of old ways of working or what is the right balance between new ways of working, old ways of working with organisations that do look back or go back, what do you think the impact might be both positive and negatives for a business?

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:19:11 - 00:21:42]

I think we did a big piece of research. So any good organisation went out to their employees, didn't they, during lockdown, which seems like ages ago now, and said, okay, what are your preferences? What do want, what does good look like? And you know, it might have been there or thereabouts with some tweaking required ultimately to apply effectively into an organization. But I think, I think my understanding certainly what I'm hearing from nine Network and the people that I'm working with that unfortunately whilst organizations and people, the majority have said we want this and it might be two days, three days depending on what their preferences are, the organizations that are forcing people are in quite often you've got a couple of very senior, very privileged men of a certain age, I'm going to call it out, forcing everybody back into the workforce because they believe that if you can't see someone sat at the desk working that they're not delivering value. And then you've got, at the other end of the spectrum you've got, you know, really progressive organizations, probably founder led organizations actually and CEOs who are more connected, they're probably more interested in leaving a legacy and connecting with their people because they believe in it. And part of the whole privilege of having your own business is the fact that you get that privilege and opportunity to create something amazing. So I think in the organizations where I'm working with entrepreneurs and founder led CEOs they're all over this and they're absolutely listening to, you know, listening to the people. I think if you're going to force people back, having asked them what they wanted and it's the complete opposite, I think you need to be prepared for a lot of fallout from that. And I think the last thing I'd say about that my experience of hiring the best talent in the market is that they sit down and they tell you what the deal is, otherwise they've got five other offers on the table. So similarly you might be trying to force the majority of people back into organizations but Great talent can negotiate what they want. If you're really talented and you can go and work in five different organizations, you're probably not going to listen to someone telling you that you have to be X, Y and Z. So I think it's really interesting. I think a lot of organizations are grappling with this and I think I read something in the Financial Times a few weeks ago that apparently, according to their latest study, the most optimal is three days a week. And what that does do is give you the flexibility to, you know, have that kind of work life balance. But at the same time, going back to your point, Raj, that connectivity, and that's important because if that goes, then you lose your culture as well. So it is a balance. I don't think there's one solution that applies to every organization. I think organizations need to do something that feels right to them and leaders need to make a choice that's what they paid for.

Raj Tulsiani:

[00:21:42 - 00:21:58]

Yeah. It's a delicious and very tricky question, isn't it? Delicious? Yeah. Because you know, if you look at your comments about authentic leadership, which, you know, the most authentic leadership is the one that says this is what we stand for.

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:21:58 - 00:21:59]

Yeah.

Raj Tulsiani:

[00:21:59 - 00:22:32]

And if that is, actually we are Goldman Sachs. We are a money making machine. If you come here, this is what's expected of you. People can vote in and vote out and my understanding is they're pretty much voting in, but when you are on the other side of it, either as a founder or a more people orientated leader, it's okay to expound your values, but then as soon as you get into the organization, you're going to have, you're going to come back to this idea of personalization. And what works for Joe doesn't work for Raj, doesn't work for Jordan.

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:22:32 - 00:22:33]

Yeah.

Raj Tulsiani:

[00:22:33 - 00:22:38]

So you're almost getting into a situation where you can't keep all of the people happy all of the time.

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:22:38 - 00:22:39]

No.

Raj Tulsiani:

[00:22:40 - 00:23:02]

So how do you traverse that knowing that even in your internal market you can't keep everyone happy? But then when you get to your external market and how your brand ambassadors engage with people, that sense of belonging, that way of working, it doesn't exist without some form of recognition of what your core business is there to do.

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:23:02 - 00:25:33]

I agree. And I think what do we know about great leaders? They're great storytellers. So it's how you tell the narrative. And I think also one of the things that I'm very conscious of doing when I work in organizations as cpo, when I consult, is around creating an employee value proposition that's really explicit. So something that tells you what we are and also what we're not. Because I think culture is really great. If culture's really, really explicit, people naturally self select. If an organization says we don't do poor performance, we don't do non diverse workforces. And there are organizations out there and I think the best example is probably Netflix. We all remember that EVP that was released about five years ago. That was so bold. And the only thing that we're going to pay you if you're not performing is we're going to pay you to leave. And it was kind of narrative to that effect. And I know that's kind of right at the other end of the spectrum, but what does that ultimately give an employee? I really like that it really turns me on or it doesn't. And I think far too often, because organizations are trying to be all things to all people, they're not clear about what they stand for. And going back to purpose, an organization that's really clear on its purpose talks about it, you can feel it in the organization. And they're comfortable to say no to employees as well as say, but you'll get all of these. So I think that's kind of quite interesting. And also, you know, it's when organizations sit on the fence around not taking decisions, I think about what their position is and their resting point on these kind of arrangements for employees. How often are you in, how often are you out? Yeah. And I think you find, don't you. I also know that if you trust your employees and you have an adult to adult culture rather than this kind of. We see a lot of at the moment and even more of in the current environment where people feel high need for control because they everything that's going on, the pressure, you know, the very kind of autocratic leadership, it has the opposite effect. When you treat people like adults and you trust them, they do the right thing. When you don't and you apply loads of rules and processes and overlay that organizations will, you know, employees will turn up, they won't think for themselves, they'll be waiting for permission and their IQ drops by something like 40%. So you know organizations that really elevate all of that and they treat you like Raj, we trust you, you're doing a great job. If you're in Hong Kong this week, you're working from there, you're on a family holiday and you're doing a bit of both, no problem. You get the best out of those types of relationships.

Raj Tulsiani:

[00:25:33 - 00:26:00]

I mean, if you are Netflix. And no one cares whether you lose £100 million a quarter or if you are a really strong brand in your marketplace. I get that. But where's the challenge in smaller businesses or businesses that aren't doing so well, or parts of the public sector where you've got mixed funding, mixed capability of leadership? Can they take your advice without some real advancement in performance management?

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:26:01 - 00:28:13]

No, I agree with you. I think if you've got high trust correlates directly with high performance, doesn't it? Organizations that are low on trust, you can generally tend to say that actually the performance is going to be poor. So I think, you know, having that, I don't know. I mean, I think the larger you get as well, the harder it is to performance manage. Because ultimately if you're a small organization and you lean every single person that isn't showing up doing their best work every day, you feel. And I think if it's a high performance culture, it won't even be the leaders that call that out. It'll be the peers of the people working alongside the person that's not performing. I've been part of those teams before when I wasn't a senior leader. And high performing teams, if someone's not doing what they should be and we're all working really hard, everybody else calls it out. But that's also culture, isn't it? It's that kind of self regulation thing. So I think, yeah, I would agree with you, Raj. I think sort your performance out first. But again, so many organizations are reluctant to lean into poor performance. And also similarly, their perspective of what great performance is, is quite fluid. So we know, I mean, how many times do we see in organizations someone that's technically really strong, but terrible behaviors, but then they seem to get away with the fact that they've pissed everybody else off? You know, they're not a team player, they're pushing their own agenda, the political, but they get away with it. Now, in the organizations that I've worked in, that I've loved working in, all of our culture has been based on behavior. So if people are signed up to behaviors rather than technical disciplines, that's also for me personally, how you drive performance is about behavior. You can learn technical skills. And one of the biggest privileges for me, I think having started my career at Shell, you could go and work pretty much there or thereabouts in any part of that business because everybody had a set standard of iq. We were all tested on eq, so it had the best of the best people working there. But what that ultimately meant because they were so performance focused, was that as long as you had the right behaviors, which is an integral part of their assessment process, we can train you to do pretty much anything else. So that's the benefit of aiming for the best people in the market. That's what you get as a byproduct of hiring the best people. You can expect them to do the right thing and they've got the right behaviors. If that's how you assess people, would.

Raj Tulsiani:

[00:28:13 - 00:28:15]

That have worked on a three day a week virtual basis?

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:28:15 - 00:29:32]

Yeah, I think it is. I think they are, yeah. But it was, you know, behaviors were non negotiable. So when I go into organizations, small organizations, and they talk about how difficult it is to create compelling culture, I always give them as an example, you know, of that. Because Shell was, you know, 150,000 people globally and it still had great behavior and great people performance because they were non negotiable and leaders were expected to do what leaders should do and so often don't engage the people, inspire them, manage performance, coach. And that was like, you know, 20 odd years ago that I was in that environment. I haven't seen many environments like that since, probably a couple. But what I would say, and I'm really enjoying the work that I'm doing with a lot of entrepreneurs, is that absolute passion and commitment to do something that satisfies and engages their employees. I think quite often in large organisations where you are institutionalized and probably acclimatized to a lot of privilege, you forget that actually part of your role is to inspire people and do all of the things that other people are doing, but you don't have to because you've been doing it for so long. So I think there's a bit of a harsh reminder there for all leaders, particularly as we enter such uncertain times. What does great leadership look like and what does it mean? And we might need to recalibrate that slightly.

Raj Tulsiani:

[00:29:33 - 00:29:36]

I think sometimes the will is there, but the skill isn't.

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:29:36 - 00:29:37]

Yeah.

Raj Tulsiani:

[00:29:37 - 00:29:47]

And if you look at this kind of cultural mindset and the journey that not just leaders have to go on, which has no destination.

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:29:48 - 00:29:50]

Yeah, it's an ever moving face, isn't it?

Raj Tulsiani:

[00:29:50 - 00:30:44]

Absolutely. You know, when you think you got somewhere and you realize you're only halfway up the second hill, the mountain's still some distance away. But if you think about this journey, I think there's a question around how on that journey you can be authentic to yourself, you can be purpose driven for your organization, you can be attentive and inquisitive about your people. And when done perfectly, I'm sure they're all in complete alignment. But when other people get involved, it can be very difficult. So how do you do all of that and then at the same time be agile enough to think differently about engagement and buy in in this world where, you know, you might be an introvert and I might see you online twice a week, or you might be a huge extrovert that comes into the office, but really is just coming into.

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:30:44 - 00:30:45]

The office because you have to.

Raj Tulsiani:

[00:30:45 - 00:31:16]

Yeah, we have to. So there's just so much individual priorities that without that kind of true north of what we're trying to achieve, I think it's difficult. But then you've got that juxtaposed, I think is the right word. With your own individual insecurities and your own individual agenda for your career as a leader. How do you get people to take all of that and just prioritize the things that take them forward in a way that makes them proud of their performance or proud of what they're achieving?

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:31:17 - 00:31:54]

It's really interesting, isn't it? Because I think leaders are under so much pressure at the moment. I think we have this ideal, almost like this kind of perfect ideology of what is senior leadership about. So if you sat around an executive table of a large organization, you focus all the time on strategy and all that. That's just not the truth. I mean, there's so much going on. You know, the amount of leaders that I know who actually have the time to be strategic at the moment, which is wrong, is kind of few and far between. They're in really well oiled, well organized organizations where everything works like clockwork. And we know there's not that many of those. So you know, it's kind of.

Raj Tulsiani:

[00:31:54 - 00:31:55]

All our clients are fab by the.

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:31:58 - 00:36:35]

And I think so it's really interesting what I am doing. I kind of. Someone asked me a business that I'd been working with, what did I see that was the main problem at the moment, bit like you're doing now. And I said actually if you think about the biggest conundrum for most organizations, it's all about people, which is what we're talking about today. And I think as a cpo, you know, I talked recently on another podcast about feeling like you're kind of in free fall every day because you go and you, you no idea what to expect because people are people. You can't apply an algorithm to people, although we think we can. Everybody's different and everything plays out at different times. What I've done at the moment. So on that principle, which I was quite interested in, most of an organization's problem as well is people. And actually, if you think about most of the conflict in organizations or the inhibitors to performance or behavior, it's all due to a breakdown in relationships between people. So typically, as a coach, you would work on A1, on one basis with individuals, and that's fine. And I think the work that I do is a bit more holistic to that. So I look at what's going on for leaders in all areas of their life. Because for me, if something's going wrong at home, then it's going to impact your performance at work. Similarly, if things are bad at work, it's going to impact your performance at home. But then most executive coaches don't really get into that. It's very much so. Raj, you come and talk to me about your problem today. So it's marginal gains. So on that principle, I trialled with an organization recently where I've gone in with their senior team as an independent coach. So I have no other agenda than to facilitate the performance of that team. And that is through being really honest upfront. Okay, so who are you working well with? Who aren't you working well with? Because what do we know about senior leaders? If there's someone there's real conflict with around the top table, you'll avoid them at all cost. Or it might even get to a point where you are completely trying to blow each other up and everybody else is sat in the crossfire of that. So really simple, but really fundamental, going back to what can you do based on how people are feeling at the moment? And people are feeling disconnected, they're feeling anxious, they are, you know, everything's really expensive at the moment. So people are struggling for money. You know, there's all of these things going on with us societally that's really impacting how people are showing up and feeling, particularly at work. So therefore, expectations of leaders are different because people are expecting more. They're not getting this reassurance from anyone at home. We haven't really talked about how we feel about it, about the fact there's war on, that there's a cost of living crisis. All of these things that are making people feel compressed. And I've just gone in simply to this senior team, and my only role that I'm playing is helping them broker, having the right conversations with each other, being really honest about. If you did a stakeholder map 1 to 10, where are you with all of your Peer group around the top table. And I'm just helping them have the right conversations with each other and also soundboarding confidentially with the stuff that's bothering them. And if you think about a C suite, it's the biggest investment you make in an organization. And we spend no money on supporting them to be effective. Now that for me is a real kind of. That's a problem. So if you're up against it every day, you've no one to talk to. Trust is really low around the top table. Where do you go to soundboard and get your sense of, okay, I'm ready, I can go back in. And it's really, really simple. But we are seeing some absolutely incredible results. Just by virtue of me being independent. People trust me because I'm not there. Other than to facilitate their performance, be there for them, have honest conversations, provide feedback to them. Those relationships are materially changing. Around the top table. Now, this is something I thought of a concept and started to do. But for me, I think a lot of organizations could be doing that because having someone independent that you trust, that you can speak to, who's going to give you good advice and help you and support you deal with the challenges that you're facing. Massive, you know, massive, massive kind of gains from something really simple. So I wonder. And it's going back to that human element. I think we get very intellectualized. Don't. With what's going on. And we get very distracted. Oh, well, we need to be making more money. We actually forget that. What do people need to be effective? It's like, who do you talk to when you're out of work? You go and see your friends who make you laugh and you can have an honest conversation with them. When the chips are down, you're talking to them about the stuff that's going on in your life. Well, why are we forgetting to translate all of that stuff into corporate life? Particularly when things are so bad and there's so much pressure on senior leaders to be masters of all things, which is also unrealistic. You can't satisfy everybody, can you?

Raj Tulsiani:

[00:36:35 - 00:36:37]

Do you think people care less about work now than they used to?

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:36:38 - 00:40:25]

I think people want to work less and have more. I think the ideology of, I don't know, I'm seeing quite a lot of. A lot of entrepreneurs I've been working with at the moment I find really interesting, have deviated from doing an IPO because they don't believe that the stock market measures the stuff that's important to them. They want to do something more Meaningful. And therefore they're looking at this employee ownership trust because actually they want to give back to their people and what they've created is enough for them and they're happy with it. And it's also kind of recognition of the people. So I think we're a very strange kind of inflection point for a lot of stuff at the moment. I think it's interesting how people are responding. I think similarly for me, you know, I left the C suite and I'd been indoctrinated into this. You know, you'll earn loads of money and you'll be really successful. You have all of this decision making power. And then I kind of came out of it and I thought, the trade offs to your personal value set to operate at that level. Level, you know, what are the trade offs for that and is it worth all of the things that you're led to believe are really effective? And I've just gone back to, you know, I've literally, when I left my last role, had this kind of 12 months of cleansing where we looked at all of this crap that we had, like houses, cars, watches, all of this stuff that doesn't mean anything to you. And I just, like, just got rid of so much crap. Not because we needed to, but because I thought, well, what is this stuff that we've accumulated all of these years? And actually, for me, I like the fact that I'm doing three days a week, you know, with people that I like. And actually I've got all of this time to spend with my family and my friends, and we're buying a house in Puglia and we're doing all of this really life enriching stuff. Because similarly, for me, I've been one of those people. And more isn't more. Less is more, I think. And I think that's the journey that I've been on myself recently. And I feel a lot more connected and centered. And I think that's probably why the work that I'm doing with the people I'm working with is probably having the results, because I'm able to connect with them authentically and maybe offer them a slightly different perspective on what is really making you happy. And you'd be surprised about how many senior people you sit in front of and say, right, come on, Raj, what are the five things that make you happy every day? Oh, nobody's even thinking about it. And when you really have that realization of what really makes you happy and the stuff that motivates you, then you start to live a completely different A different life. You know, you make really active choices on. Is that making me happy? Is this making me. We forget that because we are on the treadmill and we're on the hamster wheel, and then we. We kind of a bit blinkered, I think, to what's going on. So that was a very, very big speech, wasn't it? But I think, yeah, I think it's. I think it's interesting, and I think happiness does not come from that stuff. And I think more and more people I'm seeing are not happy at work. They're just going to work because they've got a mortgage and they've got children in private school, and they have to put up with the people that they don't like working with. And I think that's really sad because actually, if we all join together to change that, maybe we'll start to have a different narrative and expectation of what work offers and what the standards in place are for us. And I think at the moment, a lot of culture is working for a very few select, privileged people around the top table. And we know for society to work, it has to work for a majority. And I think we are. I think. I don't blame the people around the top table, but I think it's as a byproduct of everything that's going on. We talked about shareholder value, profit at the expense of everything. Well, it drives very different behaviors. I think when everything's great, people start to relax and they make different decisions. But when you are constantly under pressure, I think it's no wonder leaders are having to make the decisions they're making or they're disconnected from the people because there's too much going on for them. So, yeah, we're solving the world here today.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:40:25 - 00:40:30]

I was gonna say very deep there. Yeah.

Raj Tulsiani:

[00:40:30 - 00:40:41]

I mean, it's all balance, isn't it? And perception, you know, And I think what. What came through very strongly in what you said, Jordan, which I enjoyed immensely, you know, is this idea of, you have some choice here.

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:40:41 - 00:40:41]

Yeah.

Raj Tulsiani:

[00:40:41 - 00:41:32]

Not just how you use your time, but how you look at the world of work and how you. What pressure you choose to put yourself under as a leader. Because some of it isn't in your control, you know, some of it. You take the money, you do the job, but there are ways of looking at it, you know, And I think certainly some of the people that I meet, you know, who are great, but you can see that the pressure they're put under or the pressure they put themselves under is very different than two or Three years ago, you know, pre pandemic, it was, it felt a lot simpler. And I think we just got layers now around how people vocalize and this idea around engagement and buy in. You know, it's just so central for leaders having some form of peace of mind because no one's sitting there going, I really hope that my top team get headhunted out. You know, it's a real pressure for.

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:41:32 - 00:42:48]

People and I think it'd be really interesting, particularly in your market and what you do. What are the things that we'll be assessing leaders on in the future? And I don't think, you know, I think people will be anti ego, anti kind of self motivated. I think that we're looking for people that are, you know, demonstrate behaviors that are more sustainable and they are more human. And I think, you know, we're not really talking about that either because I'm seeing a lot in organizations that I'm doing quite a bit of work in PE at the moment. But the people that we want now are not what we want in the future. We're just hiring them for this moment in time. And I think it's a. I think that's much more effective because there's an expectation and realization that those people are good for now. But actually when we move into steady state, the type of people that we need will be different. And there's a lot of, I think the focus on behavior and what that means for leadership and how they engage with the people is really important as well. And I think, you know, going back to the generational thing, I think that generation are going to want to work for leaders who are human, who have good values, who care about them, not who are working them to death just because they want to make money. I think those days are gone. And I think we're entering, I think it's exciting as well because we're entering a really interesting period of time where it's an inflection point and we're going to see a lot of change. And I don't think we know necessarily what all of that is yet.

Raj Tulsiani:

[00:42:49 - 00:43:29]

We certainly don't. But one thing that won't go away is shareholders wanting value for their investment and them appointing boards and corporate stewards that provide them with the best possible chance of getting that, and then appointing or promoting leaders that give them the best possible chance of that. So whilst we're in that system, it's very tricky unless you have got an inspirational leader or a brand that's created on an idea of purpose for organizations to get off that hamster wheel.

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:43:30 - 00:43:39]

I wonder where we'll be, though, when we are trying to attract a generation who aren't materialistic and concerned about how much money they earn. That'd be quite interesting for those corporations, won't it?

Raj Tulsiani:

[00:43:39 - 00:43:41]

Well, I had this argument 20 years ago and lost it.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:43:41 - 00:43:42]

Did you?

Raj Tulsiani:

[00:43:42 - 00:44:04]

Yeah, because I said, not as articulately as you, but, you know, a similar kind of this is not what people want. And the person who was a group HR director of a investment bank and someone who was a really important part of my career said, let's see what they think when they're 35 with two kids.

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:44:04 - 00:44:46]

Yeah, but I do, I do think that we're going to see some change. I think, I think that's softening and I think there'll be a lot of different. You know, I think people that want to go into organization and lots of money and, you know, go into trading and banking or whatever, I think they will always have those types of people. But I think, I think we are. Are kind of looking for. I think organizations are starting to think more sustainably. I think, you know, think about the kind of questions that this generation have that are asking you about your ESG strategy and they want to. To know more about how are you measuring it? How are you measuring your kind of carbon footprint? It's very different, isn't it? Because I think. I don't think we know fully yet what they want, but I know that we know we don't. We're probably not providing it as well as we need to be.

Raj Tulsiani:

[00:44:46 - 00:44:49]

There's a lot of boxes to tick now. Yeah, there are.

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:44:49 - 00:44:50]

And it's almost insurmountable, isn't.

Raj Tulsiani:

[00:44:52 - 00:45:10]

Comes down to your point around authenticity. You know, at the risk of asking an unstructured, unscripted question when you're, you know, when you're headhunting or you're, you know, coaching one of your HR directors into a ned job, you know, do you find what the candidate wants now from an organization is different? Do they?

Jo Sweetland:

[00:45:11 - 00:45:12]

Absolutely.

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:45:12 - 00:45:12]

That's interesting.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:45:13 - 00:45:27]

Absolutely. I think what we're seeing a lot when it comes to candidates, it's not about brand. I think brand has gone a lot. I think it's not about the financials either. It's more about what is that business doing from a purpose esg.

Raj Tulsiani:

[00:45:27 - 00:45:27]

Absolutely.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:45:27 - 00:45:39]

Everything you've said. And you know, and that's really shifted. Candidates are more willing to drop in some of the other things they wouldn't two, three years ago to what they want now. They want to. They want to Be feeling like they're doing something.

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:45:39 - 00:45:40]

Yeah.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:45:40 - 00:45:47]

Purposeful for not just, you know, now, but also for generations in the future. That's a big shift that we've seen in, you know, following the pandemic.

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:45:48 - 00:46:18]

Yeah. And it's interesting, I think, you know, organizations that have their employees feel a massive sense of purpose. You can feel that when you walk into the organization and they're there for different reasons, different motivations. I'm doing some work with a client at the moment as a charity and their engagement scores are through the roof because the purpose of the organization is so strong and that's, you know, every single question in their employee engagement survey, which is around purpose. I mean, they're in the high 80s. I haven't seen engagement scores like that for a very long time. But again, you can feel that when.

Raj Tulsiani:

[00:46:18 - 00:46:22]

You go into the organization, you know, that's quite exciting.

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:46:22 - 00:46:41]

Yeah, it's really nice. It's really nice because, you know, I used to work in big corporates where people felt like that. I haven't seen that for a long time though. And you used to feel like that. But you know, I've worked in organized like Aviva or you know, talked about Shell, but that was strong sense of purpose and there was still a focus on quality behavior, those types of things. But I see that a lot less now.

Raj Tulsiani:

[00:46:42 - 00:46:48]

And as you push back on earlier, which resonated with me, it's not just one person's job.

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:46:48 - 00:46:48]

No.

Raj Tulsiani:

[00:46:48 - 00:47:08]

But how do you create a better set of conditions for the people function to help leaders deliver on this agenda, even if it's quite a narrow part of the agenda around people understanding the purpose and voting in with their spirit and empathetic activities to what the company is trying to achieve.

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:47:09 - 00:47:55]

It's really interesting, isn't it? And I think, you know, the organizations I've worked in where HR has been brilliant, more often than not, the culture of the organization has been brilliant as well. There's a direct correlation. But how many organizations are invested in hr? I think unfortunately it's seen as a necessary evil and I think that's why I'm doing so much work with CPOs at the moment around this stuff, because they're fed up with that in organisations, you know, it doesn't matter how much money they're paying you. If you're working with a group of people that don't want to listen to what you're saying, I think that has a very short shelf life and it's also very soul destroying for someone that's dedicated their career to making a difference to people. You know, if you're not focused on people, they're the biggest asset and also your greatest expense. So you need to be getting it right.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:47:55 - 00:48:14]

Well, now we've set the world to rights here today. If you were to summarize Jordan, for our listeners the three kind of takeouts for what organisations should be doing from an employee engagement and buy in perspective, what would you say would be the three do's and the three don'ts?

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:48:15 - 00:50:41]

Three do's. So I think first and foremost I think do act on the survey results that you receive. I think that's the most important thing. So if you're surveying your employees, make sure there's a proper action plan around that. And I think it's an action plan that the executive committee owns. I think that real authenticity and that comfort around being able to lean into what you're doing really well but also say, you know, we've not got that well either. But then invite suggestions as to why. I think what else would I do do's for employee engagement? I think engagement is experienced by the quality of your leaders. So I think particularly frontline leaders. I think if I've looked to accelerate culture or employee experience in an organization, I'm very much focused on the capability of the frontline manage. And I think if you look at, you know, we talked about generation intersectionality of generational expectations, it's quite interesting. But I think leaders who can coach rather than tell, that's really important for engagement. And I think maybe look at, I mean, I don't know if you've used the happiness index for example. That's a nice measure of looking at something more holistic from just engagement. It's actually measuring employees happiness and there's certain measures to that. But ultimately the spot tests and their annual survey all link together into one kind of ecosystem that works really, really well. So you can get real, live useful data at different points around where your employees are at. So I think that's quite good in terms of don'ts, don't think the survey is the answer to solving the problem. I think it's less about the questions but more about the sentiment of the mechanism and what it's telling you. I think don't survey people in an organization if you're not committed to doing something about it, which is the inverse of one of the dues that I gave before. I think for an executive committee, don't underestimate the impact of how you show up, the unification and the behavior around the top table. I think that is really important in employee engagement. They want to see leaders who are inspirational, but that actually join together and are united in a common purpose. And I think so often at the moment, you see executive committees that are a million miles away from that and then they wonder why employees aren't engaged. So I think there's a huge focus on executive committees to demonstrate the right behaviours and be diverse.

Raj Tulsiani:

[00:50:41 - 00:50:42]

Absolutely.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:50:42 - 00:50:45]

Jordan, thank you. It's been brilliant having you here today.

Raj Tulsiani:

[00:50:45 - 00:50:46]

My pleasure.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:50:46 - 00:50:54]

Thank you. And thank you for your insights. I hope the listeners have enjoyed hearing some thought provoking ideas and insights and have found it very useful.

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:50:54 - 00:50:56]

The World to Rights and Putting the World to rights.

Jo Sweetland:

[00:50:57 - 00:50:57]

Thank you.

Jordan Barry Bayliss:

[00:50:57 - 00:50:58]

Yeah, thank you.